"God is Most Glorified…When?" by Craig W. Booth
April 24th, 2007 at 10:21 pm (Bad Teaching)
The following is an excerpt from an article dealing with the ‘motto’ of John Piper’s philosophy of Christian Hedonism. The rest of this excellent article can be found here http://www.thefaithfulword.org/mostglorifiedwhen.html. If you have ever been interested in Piper’s teaching or ‘Christian Hedonism’, this critique on the motto is worthwhile reading. My thanks to Craig Booth for allowing me to post this series (yes there will be more) evaluating ‘Christian Hedonism’ in light of Scripture.
A Creed of Men
In recent years a new creed has become a mantra within the Christian world. Recently I found this creed quoted on about 100 web sites. The creed, coined by a popular contemporary author who publicly embraces a quirky mix of modern “signs and wonders” and Calvinism, is this:
“God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.”
Dr. John Piper, author of , wrote this creed (page 50) and now uses it on some of his published material much as one would use a logo or a motto.Having a logo or a motto is of no concern. But in recent years many pastors and churches have adopted this expression in much the same way a doctrinal creed is embraced. The problem? This creed is not biblical, it is not scriptural, it is not traditional, in fact, it is not even logical. It is nothing more than a newly invented precept of men. ( Matthew 15:9 Mark 7:7)
God is Most Glorified…When? When is God most glorified? You can search the Bible for a lifetime and not find the verse that states when God is most glorified. There are certainly many passages that provide statements that show that God is glorified by many things. But none are presented as the one thing that most glorifies Him.
………………………………………..
The concept of “God is most glorified when” is extra-biblical. Trying to fill in that blank does not place one on a higher spiritual plane, it simply means that one is ignoring the Bible, unwilling to accept that God has not revealed His entire mind to the human race. There are mysteries that God has chosen to keep for Himself about Himself ( Romans 11:34, 1 Corinthians 2:16).
Conclusion “God is most glorified when” is a phrase and a concept God has purposely chosen not to reveal to us in the pages of scripture. Dr. Piper’s expression is not only unbiblical and illogical, it is speculative and therefore dangerous. Used as a creed it becomes a “precept of men” which God hates ( Hosea 5:11 Isaiah 29:13 Jeremiah 8:6-9 Matthew 15:9 Mark 7:7 Colossians 2:22 Titus 1:14). When taught to our impressionable children, as if it were somehow a quote from the Bible, we impose on our children the leaven of the Pharisees ( Matthew 16:12) who Christ vehemently condemned because they taught “the precepts of men” as if they were also scripture ( Matthew 15:9).
Read the entire article at http://www.thefaithfulword.org/mostglorifiedwhen.html
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Boreas said,
September 14, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Cool.
Nathan said,
September 25, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Unbelievable!!! This article shows an incredible LACK of insight, integrity, and intelligence on the part of the author. John Piper NEVER even insinuates that God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him. What he says is that, “God is most glorified IN US when we are most satisfied in him”. Being satisfied in God is the essence of true repentance. How can you even argue this point. Can God be glorified, much less most glorified, in us when we are dissatisfied in him? Can we glorify God when we esteem anything higher than him? God is the only source of satisfaction in this world. Everything else leaves us wanting more. John Piper is the most God-centered, God-exalting, and God-focused preacher I know… maybe that’s why he is being attacked! It really does fly in the face of those who espouse a man-centered theology.
tramsek said,
September 26, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Hi Nathan,
Thank you for pointing out that Piper says, “God is most glorified IN US when…”. However, the primary question remains, which is, where in the Bible does it say when God is most glorified IN US? Perhaps God is most glorified IN US when we initially repent? Could it not be so? Perhaps God is most glorified IN US when we leave our sinful flesh and gain our heavenly bodies? Who knows? The point is that the Bible doesn’t say when God is most glorified IN US.
By the way, I would heartily agree with the statement that “God is glorified in us when we are satisfied in Him”. That’s a true statement. But when you make the statement an absolute one by using the qualifier “most” it becomes absolutely false. For example, if I said, “Some birds fly.” That’s a true statement, but if I said, “All birds fly.” it becomes false (ostriches don’t fly). When I make the statement an absolute one, it becomes absolutely false.
Perhaps more concerning in your comment, however, is the notion that “being satisfied in God is the essence of true repentance”. I thought the well established meaning of repentance is to ‘turn from sin’ or to change one’s mind or even to regret. Perhaps you meant a ‘fruit’ of true repentance is being satisfied in God. I would agree that one of many fruits of repentance is being satisfied in God. Probably a more primary fruit would be reconciliation with God or restoration of fellowship with God, but I could see satisfaction in God as a part of the fruit of true repentance. It certainly is not the essence. If John Piper has stated this, I’d be happy to look at the context in which he said it (I would actually be surprised if Piper truly made this statement).
Praying for your heart to be aimed at pleasing Jesus and not concerned with pleasing yourself,
Tony
Includes the following Audio Comment
Nathan said,
September 27, 2007 at 11:21 am
Thank you for your honest and KIND remarks. I appreciate that you are a gentleman. This dialogue started in reguard to an attack on John Piper, so I will answer from his sermons and writings. I am not a “Piperite”! I love and respect him and am very greatful for his influence in my life.
I guess to understand my coment, [”Being satisfied in God is the essence of true repentance.”] you need to understand how I am defining sin.
“What Is Sin? The most penetrating and devastating definition of sin that I am aware of in Scripture is the last part of Romans 14:23: “Whatever is not from faith is sin.” The reason it is penetrating is that it goes to the root of all sinful actions and attitudes, namely, the failure to trust God.” John Piper 8-24-80.
Going a little deeper, he defines depravity as when, “We prefer the glory of created things over the Glory of God.” John Piper 4-19-07.
The deepest root of our sin is prefering ANYTHING over God, or exalting ANYTHING over God. Therefore, I believe that the essence of repentance is turning from all other fountains where we once tried to find satisfaction, and trusting Christ as our only source of satisfaction. Not being satisfied is ultimately what we are repenting of.
Piper’s definition of repentance is as follows; “That is repentance: turning from darkness to light and from Satan to God. It is a reversal of the direction of your life—toward God.” 9-25-90
Nathan said,
September 27, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Isaiah 55:1-2 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
“Men are in a restless pursuit after satisfaction in earthly things. They will exhaust themselves in the deceitful delights of sin, and, finding them all to be vanity and emptiness, they will become very perplexed and disappointed. But they will continue their fruitless search. Though wearied, they still stagger forward under the influence of spiritual madness, and though there is no result to be reached except that of everlasting disappointment, yet they press forward. They have no forethought for their eternal state; the present hour absorbs them. They turn to another and another of earth’s broken cisterns, hoping to find water where not a drop was ever discovered yet.” Charles H. Spurgeon
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
These are some of the Biblical basis for what I have written above, although there are many more.
Nathan said,
September 28, 2007 at 7:37 am
I appreciate the dialogue and hope we can both come out of this discussion having benefited and grown closer to the Lord. It is not my desire to make you believe just like I do. I know that will never happen, but I do believe that we are very close in our beliefs in most areas. However, I am interested in answering questions that you brought up.
God being MOST GLORIFIED IN US when we are MOST SATISFIED IN HIM only excludes the possibility of God being most glorified in us when we are less satisfied or dissatisfied in him. The qualifier most doesn’t make it an absolutely false statement at all. God can be most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him AND be most glorified in us when we initially repent, or leave our sinful flesh and gain our heavenly bodies, or lead another to faith in Christ, or help the hurting…etc. We must be satisfied in God while doing all of these other things. We cannot truly repent if we are not satisfied in God. If we share our faith without being satisfied in God, he doesn’t get glory from it! He is not interested in service performed, but rather the attitude with which it is performed. 1 Samuel 16:7 for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. The more satisfied we are in God, the more glory he receives from us. Whatever point it may be when God is most glorified in us, it will most certainly be while we are most satisfied in him.
If I said, “God is most glorified in me when I am most obedient to him”, I would not be making an absolutely false statement. All I would be excluding would be the fact that God cannot be most glorified in me when I am less obedient or disobedient. It would not mean that God cannot be most glorified in me when I repent, for repentance is obedience! If you redefine satisfaction to mean something Piper is not saying, which is exactly what Craig W. Booth did in his article, Satisfied in the Lord — A Re-examination of the Motto, you are being underhanded, unfair, and ultimately dishonest in your criticism.
You also wrote, “The point is that the Bible doesn’t say when God is most glorified IN US.”, and I see where you’re coming from. I stand firmly on the authority of the Scriptures. I believe that the Scriptures are our sole authority for faith and practices. John Piper is very outspoken on this point as well. He preaches strongly on this point. When you read the Scriptures, three things should happen; observation, interpretation, and application. The Bible doesn’t say many things explicitly, but it does teach them in principle. Can you prove this statement is wrong using the Bible?
I hope this does not come across as arrogant. I am in no way an expert. I am just someone who is searching daily to please God in my life and I believe the greatest way to honor him is by joyfully serving him. Serving him is not only a duty … it’s a pleasure… the highest pleasure. It’s not always easy or fun, but it is always a pleasure. The point John Piper is trying to get across is that the greatest pleasure in life is to be found in God alone, and I don’t think you disagree with that. I had a big problem with the term “Christian hedonist” when I first saw it. It actually made me mad. However, I knew enough about John Piper that I bought the book, Desiring God, and found out WHY he used that terminology.
Craig W. Booth said,
September 28, 2007 at 10:46 am
Hello Nathan,
Tony emailed and indicated an interesting discourse was occurring at his blog. Thank you for raising questions and concerns regarding what you read in my article. Discernment entails verifying everything against Scripture, tedious as it may be to check out so much information sometimes, but it is necessary. That you have taken the time to read and question what you read is God honoring.
Nathan, you wrote in part, “We must be satisfied in God while doing all of these other things. We cannot truly repent if we are not satisfied in God. If we share our faith without being satisfied in God, he doesn’t get glory from it!”
I would caution that such generalizations are not always as grounded in the truth as they first appear when they are initially encountered. God does get the glory even when we share our faith from out of corrupt motives, “Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice” ( Philippians 1:15-18).
That glorifying God in us and through us is not so much dependent on the man who wills, but on God who chooses, we read the following about how God uses His word regardless of our heart’s attitude, “So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it” ( Isaiah 55:11).
Ultimately, God’s glory does not depend upon man, If all humankind would stop praising God today, the rocks would rise up to fill the void so that God would be glorified.
Taking a second to go back to a phrase in Philippians 1:15-18 Paul says that the MOTIVE of some who preach is their love, not their pursuit of pleasure in God. Paul esteems this motive of love very highly. In his writings he never even acknowledges a motive of seeking pleasure (in God or otherwise).
We do find pleasure in all that God is and all that He has created and all that He has given us (spiritual and material), but we do not seek it and demand it as if we were greedy. There is a difference between an active pursuit of pleasure (hedonism) and allowing God to bless us with pleasure as we live obedient and loving lives.
Again, thank you so much for being so kind as to call attention to your concerns. As you pointed out, I doubt we are far apart in most areas of doctrine and belief.
In Christ’s Service,
Craig W. Booth
Nathan said,
September 28, 2007 at 9:57 pm
I couldn’t agree with you more. I did write, “If we share our faith without being satisfied in God, he doesn’t get glory from it!” and I worded that very poorly. I was meaning to say that he doesn’t get glory IN US. I know this is very touchy, because he gets glory THROUGH us NO MATTER WHAT!!!
I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God, and I realize that my little mind can’t even come close to grasping the extent of that! My favorite verses in the Bible are Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I would even go farther than you did in your answer. I believe that God even gets glory from satan (small “s” on purpose), the beast, the false prophet, and every soul suffering in Hell. God gets ultimate glory out of his entire creation PERIOD!!! Philippians 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. However, I do believe that there is an extent to which he is not glorified IN US at certain times based on 1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. If God gets the glory no matter what we do, then what is the point of serving or worshipping Him? There are probably many answers, but one of the most certainly is that there is no higher pursuit or pleasure in life. Not selfish pleasure, but pleasure that comes from LOVE!
Thank you for pointing out my error. I try to be thorough, but I am subject to various typos.
I agree with you on the wording of John Piper, but not on the doctrine of John Piper. He has taken criticism from some of his closest friends for how he chooses to word his interpretation of the Scripture, but they know his doctrine is pure. I can agree to disagree with you on the wisdom in stressing pursuing pleasure in God the way he does, but he does say unequivocally that our pursuit of pleasure is to be limited to God himself, NOT selfish or mercinary pleasure seeking. There are so many false teachers who are spawning “crack-head” philosophies today. Why don’t you go after some of them? Piper’s doctrine is straight, although controversial, and he should be prayed for and encouraged, not disparaged and villified. (Good time to reference Philippians 1:15-18 again)
Craig, You wrote, “Taking a second to go back to a phrase in Philippians 1:15-18 Paul says that the MOTIVE of some who preach is their love, not their pursuit of pleasure in God. Paul esteems this motive of love very highly. In his writings he never even acknowledges a motive of seeking pleasure (in God or otherwise).” Let’s examine your claim against Scripture. Vs. 17 of love (et agape) agape; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:–(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love. affection
Merriam-Webster
affection
1 : a moderate feeling or emotion
2 : tender attachment : FONDNESS
3 a (1) : a bodily condition (2) : DISEASE, MALADY b : ATTRIBUTE
4 obsolete : PARTIALITY, PREJUDICE
5 : the feeling aspect (as in pleasure) of consciousness
What about love feast? That sounds pretty hedonistic. How can you separate love and pleasure?
Philippians 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. Sounds very Piperesque… Now, I am no prophet, but I am having a premonition that you would counter with Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; ( I also sense that you’re smiling) In regard to this, I would like to quote Piper:
“How Beautiful Is Sacrifice? One of the stories he [Richard Wurmbrand] tells is about a Cistercian abbot who was interviewed on Italian television. The interviewer was especially interested in the Cistercian tradition of living in silence and solitude. So he asked the abbot, “And what if you were to realize at the end of your life that atheism is true, that there is no God? Tell me, what if it were true?”
The Abbot replied, “Holiness, silence, and sacrifice are beautiful in themselves, even without promise of reward. I still will have used my life well.”
Few glimpses into the meaning of life have had a greater impact on my contemplations about suffering. The first impact of the abbot’s response was a superficial, romantic surge of glory. But then something stuck. It did not sit well. Something was wrong. At first I could not figure it out. Then I turned to the great Christian sufferer, the apostle Paul, and was stunned by the gulf between him and the abbot.
Paul’s answer to the interviewer’s question was utterly contrary to the abbot’s answer. The interviewer had asked, “What if your way of life turns out to be based on a falsehood, and there is no God?” The abbot’s answer in essence was, “It was a good and noble life anyway.” Paul gave his answer in 1 Corinthians 15:19 “If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.” This is the exact opposite of the abbot’s answer.
Why did Paul not agree with the monk? Why didn’t Paul say, “Even if Christ is not raised from the dead, and even if there is no God, a life of love and labor and sacrifice and suffering is a good life. Why didn’t he say that even without the reward of resurrection we are not to be pitied”? Why did he say instead, “If our hope in Christ proves false in the end, we are to pitied more than anyone.”
Does Life Go Better With Christ? This is an utterly crucial question for the Christian Church, especially in prosperous, comfortable lands like America and Western Europe. How many times do we hear Christian testimonies to the effect that becoming a Christian has made life easier? I recently heard the quarterback of a professional football team say that after he prayed to receive Christ he felt good about the game again and was proud of their 8 and 8 record because he was able to go out every Sunday and give it his best.
It seems that most Christians in the prosperous West describe the benefits of Christianity in terms that would make it a good life, even if there were no God and no resurrection. Think of all the psychological benefits and relational benefits. And of course these are true and Biblical: the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy and peace. So if we get love, joy and peace from believing these things, then is it not a good life to live, even if it turns out to be based on a falsehood. Why should we be pitied?
What’s wrong with Paul then? Was he not living the abundant life? Why would he say that, if there is no resurrection, we are of all men most to be pitied? It does not seem to be pitiable to live your three score and ten in a joyful and satisfying delusion, if that delusion makes no difference whatever for the future. If delusion can turn emptiness and meaninglessness into happiness, then why not be deluded?
The answer seems to be that the Christian life for Paul was not the so-called good life of prosperity and ease. Instead it was a life of freely chosen suffering beyond anything we ordinarily experience. Paul’s belief in God, and his confidence in resurrection, and his hope in eternal fellowship with Christ did not produce a life of comfort and ease that would have been satisfying even without resurrection. No, what his hope produced was a life of chosen suffering. Yes, he knew joy unspeakable. But it was a “rejoicing in hope” ( Romans 12:12). And that hope freed him to embrace sufferings that he never would have chosen apart from the hope of his own resurrection and the resurrection of those for whom he suffered. If there is no resurrection Paul’s sacrificial choices, by his own testimony, were pitiable.
Yes, there was joy and a sense of great significance in his suffering. But the joy was there only because of the joyful hope beyond suffering. This is the point of Romans 5:3-4. “We exult in our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, and endurance produces proven genuineness, and genuineness produces hope.” So there is joy in affliction. But the joy comes because of the hope that affliction itself is helping to secure and increase. So if there is no hope, Paul is a fool to embrace this affliction, and even more foolish to rejoice in it. But there is hope. And so Paul chooses a way of life that would be foolish and pitiable without the hope of joy beyond the grave. He answers Richard Wurmbrand’s question, Yes. He chooses suffering.”
(By the way, I would suggest reading Chapter 10 SUFFERING. It would probably clear up some of your concerns, UNLESS you are drawing hedonistic pleasure from nitpicking Mr. Piper.)
To sum it up, Piper echoes all that you are saying in his epilogue to Desiring God. “Someone may object, No, you should not pursue your joy. You should pursue God. This is a helpful objection. It forces us to make several needed clarifications.
The objector is absolutely right that if we focus our attention on our own subjective experience of joy we will most certainly be frustrated and God will not be honored. When you go to an art museum, you had better attend to the paintings and not your pulse. Otherwise there will be no delight in the beauty of the art.
But beware of jumping to the conclusion that we should no longer say, “Come and take delight in these paintings.” Do not jump to the conclusion that the command to pursue joy is misleading while the command to look at the paintings is not.
What would you say is wrong with the person who comes to the art museum looking for a particular painting because he knows he can make a big profit if he buys and resells it? He goes from room to room looking carefully at each painting. He is not the least preoccupied with his subjective, aesthetic experience. What is wrong here?
He is mercenary. His reason for looking is not the reason the painting was created. You see, it is not enough to say that our pursuit should simply be the paintings. For there are ways to pursue the paintings that are bad.
One common way of guarding against this mercenary spirit is to say that we should pursue art for art’s sake. But what does this mean? It means, I think, pursuing art in a way that honors art and not money. But how do you honor art? I would answer: you honor art mainly by experiencing an appropriate emotion when you look at it.
We know that this emotion will be missed if we are self-conscious while beholding the painting. We also know that it will be missed if we are money-conscious or fame-conscious or power-conscious when we look at the painting. It seems to me therefore that a very helpful way to admonish visitors to the art museum is to say, “Delight yourself in the paintings!”
The word “delight” guards them from thinking that they should pursue money or fame or power with the paintings. And the word “in” guards them from thinking that the emotion which honors the paintings could be experienced any other way than by focusing in on the paintings themselves.
So it is with God. We are commanded by the Word of God, “Delight yourself in the LORD.” This means: Pursue joy in God. The word “joy” or “delight” protects us from a mercenary pursuit of God. And the word “in” protects us from thinking that joy somehow stands alone as an experience separate from our experience of God Himself.”
For His Glory,
Nathan
Craig W. Booth said,
October 1, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Dear Nathan,
It is my intent to make this my last comment to this post, as I am far behind on many of my obligations. Discussions such as this one are usually a means of growth, as they expand my views and cause me to assess my understanding of Scripture, so while I must put my attention elsewhere, I think this exchange has caused me to be beneficially Word-focused once again.
Nathan, it is good to see that you appreciate that God will maximize His glory for Himself, regardless of what man does, or does not do. As with all of us who are Christians, you must struggle with the question, “What can I do personally to advance God’s glory and God’s kingdom?” If for you the answer is “to be most satisfied in Christ,” then be fully convinced in your own mind that this is so, for you are at liberty to live up to that as if it were your own personal command. If you have no specific Bible verse which expressly commands us all “to be most satisfied in Christ so as to most glorify Him,” then I would counsel against imposing that as a command on others, rather, keep it as your own personal conviction ( Romans 14:22).
As for myself, I am convinced that the meaning of 1 Corinthians 10:31 IN CONTEXT, is that I must do everything in a manner that publicly and privately demonstrates the righteousness and lovingkindess of His name (that is, gives Him glory). And in context, 1 Corinthians 10:31 is the very example of loving one’s brother by giving up eating perfectly pleasant meat just for the benefit of another’s spiritual welfare; it is this love of the brethren, through deeds of selflessness and which put the interests of others above our own, that give God the glory because it fulfills the two greatest commandments.
Stated another way, I believe the pursuit of giving love to man and to God is how I can best intentionally try to glorify God’s name (by the way, “pursue love” is a literal command of Scripture whereas “the pursuit of pleasure” is not — 1 Timothy 6:11, 1 Corinthians 14:1a). My personal satisfaction is of no concern when compared with whether I am acting in a manner that is pleasing to God.
Finally, I have always believed, and continue to believe, that the pursuit of pleasure (whether in God, in God’s handiwork, or via God’s people, etc.) is never the goal of spiritual pursuit. The pursuit of my pleasure is selfish, even if I find that pleasure in God or in what God has made, if the goal is to attain pleasure, then it is a selfish goal. I must pursue love for God and love for others as a higher spiritual goal, just as Christ commanded ( Matthew 22:36-40). That is precisely what C.S. Lewis wrote, that the pursuit of pleasure is selfish “greed” (you are invited to read more of what Lewis wrote about experiencing pleasure at: http://thefaithfulword.org/chfaqspage2.html#Q33 ).
Nathan, perhaps nowhere is the difference in our theology more evident than in your definition of love as being simply “affection.” This is not how the varied prophets who penned Scripture applied the word love. Over the years I have studied the contextual use of the word love in the Bible and found that an aggregate meaning is most often: “intentionally doing deeds that benefit someone else, or actions of obedience to Christ, regardless of one’s emotional disposition.” It is for that reason that it can properly be said that we should love our neighbors, and not just in word, but in deed (to read some of my rather clumsy research on biblical love, a 10-part post begins here, http://thefaithfulword.org/2006juneblogarchives.html#28 with part 2 also quoting Vine’s penetrating definition of agape love).
Nathan, if it is not too bold to do so, I would invite you to scan through the list of questions that have accumulated in the FAQs on Christian Hedonism ( http://thefaithfulword.org/chfaqs.html ). Many of your assumptions are addressed in there, such as the assumption that a command to rejoice in the Lord is the same as telling someone to pursue their pleasure in God as their greatest priority in life.
Nathan, you also asked why I would spend precious time and resources exposing the errors underlying the Christian Hedonism philosophy instead of researching far worse doctrines and errors. Without providing the entire history, I will say this was not my original idea. Years ago, a pastor assigned a team of us, as care/flock group leaders, to teach the book Desiring God to our small groups so as to begin to convert the congregation to Christian Hedonism. Through my obligatory study of this book, and later Dangerous Duty, my notes and concerns about the accuracy with which Bible passages were cited grew into the collection of articles presently posted on thefaithfulword.org. Every person is given, by the Lord, a different ministry with different impacts than others, and it is beyond human ability to judge the kingdom value of that ministry; though, for example I might see little value in the work, I would be remiss if I do not do as God has guided me to do (1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 21-22).
Finally, the assumption you have employed, that joy and pleasure are entirely interchangeable, is an imprecise use of language and a practice that I discourage. Expressing joy is pleasurable, but joy is so much more than a mere sensation of pleasure. Pleasure may sometimes include the expression of joy, but it is also something much different. In the FAQs, should you care to examine them, are a number of discussions on joy as they relate to the philosophy of hedonism (#4, #5, #7, #8, #34, #35).
Nathan, only God’s best to you. Tony, thank you for the invitation to participate in the discussion.
In Christ’s Service,
Craig W. Booth
Nathan said,
October 1, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Craig,
I will also try to wrap up my thoughts in this post. Thank you for your thoughts and especially the conviction and courtesy with which you have delivered them. I pray that God will use you greatly as you work for His Glory.
If you do all that you do out of love for God, I really don’t see how you can go wrong! I want you to know that I am not belittling love, nor do I simply view it as affection. I only meant to imply that affection is an integral part of love and can not be detatched from the Biblical idea of love. I understand the duty and commitment that is associated with love as well. I have been married to the same woman for 12 years and I realize that there is more to a relationship than warm, fuzzy feelings. I have no qualms with you or the authority of Scripure on loving God and others. I also appreciate the definition of love that you pointed out, “intentionally doing deeds that benefit someone else, or actions of obedience to Christ, regardless of one’s emotional disposition.”
Here is my final point and closing argument. You believe it is SELFISH for me to make pursuing pleasure IN GOD (and in God alone) my focus. I believe that it is SELF-CENTERED for you to make your love, something you have to offer God and others, your focus. I feel quite sure that you do not mean it in that way and I can assure you I am not living my Christian life trying to achieve some new level of earthly sensationalism. I feel quite sure that you are striving to honor God in your every action and that is so refreshing in today’s world.
I have made a cognizant and calculated choice to focus of my life on GOD. My Christian life is not about what I can offer him or others, it is about what he has done and is doing in me! “Satisfaction in him” explicitly puts the focus on him. I must love him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength… BUT I can only do that in responce to the overwhelming, awe-inspiring GRACE that he has given. What a MIGHTY GOD we serve!!! As the songwriter so aptly stated, ” Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, In the light of His glory and grace.”
I have had my fill of man-centered theology. I believe the Christian life begins and ends with HIM! Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
My prayer is that we both stay balanced in our walk with God
Nathan said,
October 1, 2007 at 10:47 pm
(sorry, I accidentally clicked “submit comment”)
My prayer is that we both stay balanced in our walk with God and honor him in all we do. Let us not fall into the ditches that are on either side of our own viewpoints. I pray that we will both be spared from the arrogance of thinking we have it all figured out AND that we would pour over the pages of God’s precious word as though it were possible to attain such understanding.
May God richly bless you as you further the cause of His kingdom.
For HIS Glory,
Nathan
tramsek said,
October 4, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Hi Nathan,
I’ve enjoyed reading the interaction between you and Craig. I’d like to encourage you in a few ways. First off, I applaud each of your statements in the following paragraph you wrote.
It was very encouraging to me to hear you say that when you heard the phrase “Christian hedonist” you had a big problem with it and it made you mad. I assume this is because you understand what a normal hedonist is (i.e. someone who is devoted to maximizing their own self-pleasure as the goal of life). Obviously that is antithetical to biblical Christianity, for the goal of life for the Christian is to glorify God by loving the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. In your words, Christians “search daily to please God”. I soundly agree, as does orthodox Christianity that this pursuit of pleasing God is “not only a duty…it’s a pleasure.” I would think that evangelical Christians would also agree that “the greatest pleasure in life is to be found in God alone.” The point being that the goal of normal hedonism is to make yourself happiest in the long run, while the goal of Christianity is to love and glorify God whether through life or death. But Christians have always known that this biblical pursuit brings true happiness and deep seated joy to the hearts of those in pursuit of pleasing God.
Now I know that Piper tries to say that both of these goals can be made into one single goal. However the Bible and logic demand that only one goal can be highest. Only one command can be foremost (Jesus tells us explicitly which is foremost and second-most). Here’s the bottom line. What horrified you about the term “Christian hedonist” is that it is an oxymoron. Real hedonism has no place in the Christian life. Now most folks who follow Piper’s teaching would say that Piper doesn’t mean real hedonism. He just means that we should rejoice in the Lord. That is a misunderstanding of Piper’s philosophy. Here’s what Piper really means (this is my paraphrase from all of his teachings on Christian Hedonism): Really be a true hedonist. Always look out for what will bring you the most self-pleasure in the long run, with eternity in sight. Do everything you do from a motive of trying to make yourself happy. Devote yourself to maximizing your own happiness. Never deny your desire to bring pleasure to yourself, only stoke it and fan it into flame. Now, the Bible tells us the best way to maximize your own happiness is to find it in God. Isn’t it great that we can devote ourselves to making ourselves happy and still glorify God? In fact, even though some Christians might say the greatest news in the world is the gospel of Jesus Christ, I say that the greatest news in all the world is that there is no necessary conflict between my pursuit for my happiness and God’s passion for His glory. Some Christians tell you to give money to the homeless out of compassion, pity or love, but I tell you that the motive in your heart for giving alms to the poor should be to increase your own self-pleasure. In fact, do everything you do (at the heart-motive level) in order to maximize your own self-pleasure. The benefit is that you’ll do good deeds, obey God, worship God, etc. Here’s a shocker for you, the ONLY reason why you should worship God is for the PLEASURE to be had in Him. If you worship God for any other reason (say because He is worthy, out of a motive of love, out of awe, etc) you are not being biblical, in fact you are arrogant. So I, John Piper, want you to be a real hedonist. Make the pursuit of your own happiness your goal in life. And the best way to maximize your this self-pleasure is to find it in God. Thus you are a “Christian” hedonist.
Now you may be saying to yourself, “Tony’s putting words into Piper’s mouth”. Well perhaps, but I am simply paraphrasing Piper’s own words. If you think I have not honestly represented Piper’s intent, let me quote from him here:
So you see that Piper has himself stated that he really is a true hedonist, he’s just a Christian hedonist because he’s found that the best way to be happy is to find it in God. The problem is that at the heart-level, his motive is still self-centered. His outward focus and eyes are fixed on Jesus, but WHY? What is the reason, the motive, the heart for WHY John Piper fixes his eyes on Jesus? Because of the kick-back, the benefit, the pleasure that Piper gets. By the way, Piper doesn’t attend church to ‘give’, he comes to ‘get’. He means to get pleasure. He means the best pleasure he gets is found in God.
Nathan, it seems that you are not a true hedonist at heart (you are not a Piperite). I would encourage you to take a second look at Piper’s life philosophy of “Christian Hedonism” and be as repulsed at it as you were initially, as I am after years of studying Piper’s “thesis” (his term). Continue daily to seek to please God in all things and to do it joyfully and you won’t go wrong.
That’s makes me think of Piper’s false dichotomy of “Pursue God vs. Pursue joy in God”. He says the first statement is inferior to the second, even though nowhere in the Bible are we called to pursue joy. We are called to pursue many things, righteousness, faith, love, peace, etc. But not joy. Even if we were called to pursue our own happiness, it certainly is not the “highest pursuit” that Christian Hedonism makes it. But it’s a false dichotomy. There are many other ways to pursue God. For example we could pursue God begrudgingly or we could pursue God joyfully. You see that the object of our pursuit is still God. But in Piper’s philosophy, the object of his pursuit is ‘joy’ which Piper has said is synonymous with ‘pleasure’ (a debatable point itself). So you see that most followers of Piper who are not real hedonists think that Piper is saying, “You can choose to pursue God begrudgingly or pursue God joyfully and clearly the second is better.” But that is not Christian hedonism and it is not what Piper has said. He is changing the object of your pursuit from God to your own pleasure. As you said earlier, “I believe the greatest way to honor him is by joyfully serving him. Serving him is not only a duty … it’s a pleasure… the highest pleasure.” So you see that, based on those words, you are not a true hedonist, Christian or otherwise. A Christian hedonist would rephrase your statement to something like this, “I believe the greatest way to honor Him is to pursue my own self-pleasure in Him. Serving Him is not only a duty…it’s a pleasure…the highest pleasure and that is THE SOLE REASON why I serve Him. Because I get pleasure in Him.” You see that Piper has taking the accompanying attitude of joy and made it the compelling motive.
Stay your course Nathan and leave off the “Christian hedonism” moniker. I praise the Lord that you are not a true “Christian Hedonist”. I praise God that He used the truths of His word to teach you to see that it is your duty to “rejoice in the Lord.” As for me, the label “Christian” is good enough, for Christ is my greatest treasure and I am supremely happy in Him. My highest pursuit in life is to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and, praise God, He grants me tremendous joy as a by-product of my devotion to Him and not my devotion to my own pleasure. Please pray that I would continue to fix my eyes on Jesus, for His name’s sake (regardless of my happiness).
Tony
P.S. Please see THIS post to listen to audio clips of John Piper himself explaining the shocking implications of his philosophy. Notice how he interchanges the accompanying attitude of happiness or cheerfulness (”God loves a cheerful giver”) with a compelling motive of happiness (”I do what I do because it will make me happiest in the long run.”). The Christian is compelled by the love of Christ, not love for self-pleasure. 2 Cor 5:14
Includes the following Audio Comment
Sue said,
October 5, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Wow Tony I have been reading some of the dialog between you and Nathan. The comment that piper makes, “I do what I do because it will make me happiest in the long run” really bothers me. My question is how can that sit well with the Christian. I can’t imagine saying that!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous said,
October 12, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Tony, can you post citations to the Piper quotes you listed above in response to Nathan?
Thanks!
tramsek said,
October 12, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Hi Anonymous,
I’d be happy to point you to where Piper made those statements, but first a question for you. What if Piper did not make those statements and I just made them up out of the air? Would you say the content of those statements are unrighteous? Would those statements reflect biblical truth if, say, Benny Hinn said them? Now here’s a second question, what if I could show you that John Piper really did say them, would you then try to rationalize them away by saying he didn’t really mean the content contained in those statements? This little exercise may help us to see that biblical truth is biblical truth, no matter who the messenger is and error is error no matter the mouthpiece. All Christian teachers spout some error and some truth because nobody is perfect and no one’s teaching is impeccable.
A corollary thought to this is that if John Piper’s error consisted solely in one piece of his teaching and did not run throughout everything he teaches, then I might not see it as much of an issue. For example if I thought his eschatology was unbiblical or his ecclesiology, that would be be minor compared to someone teaching a whole life philosophy. John Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” is a thread that runs through all his books. He himself has said something like, “If you want to buy a John Piper book, just get one because I say the same thing in every book and it’s that one paragraph.” referring to a paragraph by Jonathan Edwards on which Piper bases Christian Hedonism (that’s a whole other story). In other words Christian Hedonism is Piper’s LIFE philosophy and he wants it to be yours too. Hedonism is a way of life, it’s not simply one part of life and Christian Hedonism is no different.
Finally to answer your question, the best way for you to see the citations for Piper’s quotes would be for me to refer you to Craig W. Booth’s article called “A Biblical Study of the Theological Foundation of Christian Hedonism which can be found here http://thefaithfulword.org/studyhedonism.html In it Craig does us the favor of giving us the citations of the exact book and page number wherever Piper is quoted.
Thanks for the interaction, I pray that the Lord would direct you into the steadfastness of Christ and the love of God.
Includes the following Audio Comment
This is a bit silly said,
November 6, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Hello!
Reading the back and forth exchange is a bit frustrating. First, John Piper did not invent “Christian Hedonism”, the bible did. Of course that term, nor the term “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him” found in scripture, but neither is the trinity! Both are clearly taught, and held throughout the history of the real church. The greates theologian most likely ever, Jonathan Edwards wrote, “Now what is glorifying God if not enjoying the glory he has displayed”. It’s so simple and obvious it’s rediculous! The only thing that hurts it is the semantical nit picking by Craig. Is there really ANYONE who thinks Piper is referring to Hedonism as defined in a dictonary? If you doubt this, then why does God, early on, say, “Because you did not serve the Lord your God with Joy and Gladness calamity will fall on you” (Sloppy). Why are we COMMANDED to “Rejoice always IN the Lord”? Is God that small that he won’t make his people joyful IN HIM. Forget the world, the pleasures of this world, IN HIM. I will say this, if you are NOT JOYFUL in the Lord, you most likely do not know him! And as far as mis-quoting CS Lewis, he said “It is Christian duty as you know for us all to be as happy as can be”, and “The Scotch(Westminister) Catechism says mans chief end is “To glorify God and enjoy him forever”, we shall see that these two are the same, glorifying is enjoying, and enjoying is gloryfing”. It, on it’s surface, seems odd, until you really study what all of the real theologians have known throughout history. Piper is simply summarizing what the church has always taught, in a generation that thinks God is our heavenly servant.
This is a bit silly said,
November 6, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I apologize if I came off a bit grumpy on my last post, I’m just getting so frustrated by these proud people who cut down the greatest news of all time so it will fit into their “Higher, more holy ways”. You can tell, immediately that this Craig Booth is disingenous, in his description of Piper, he writes “A new signs-wonders” and Calvinist minister. Making Piper seem like a nut. Do you know the “Signs and wonders” movement is one that Piper hates. He does believe that gifts are still available today, not just assigned to the apostolic times, do you know why? Because that’s what the bible teaches! There is not one passage that says the gifts left. The point really is that the messager is being attached by silly semantical arguments. Look, if you take no Joy in the Lord, that’s your business, stop criticizing those that do. And what does “Satisfied” mean anyway? I don’t mean dictionary, I mean what does Piper and everyone else mean by it? It means loving the Lord over all things, Enjoying him over all things, taking our comfort in him. This doesn’t glorify God? Please, get off your pride bandwagon.